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San Francisco Golddiggers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:52 pm

You could also up your own bid so that owner who started auction can not start a new one. More strategery.


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Atlanta Africans
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:22 pm

Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Honestly, I already have something noted for next January because I just never got enough time to brainstorm before this January but I am very much against people being able to start the auctions for their own tagged players.  It's fucking stupid.

I know people can whine about damn near anything in life, but the entire point of tagging is paying that price and then waiting to see if people are gonna come after your player.  In some cases they will not.  Yes, the timing of the game could hurt/help you but that's part of the game just like everything else.

Anyway, by January I intend to have something figured out....

If you do change it, that lowers the values of tags quite a lot imho


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Kane County Goon Squad
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:36 pm

I like the idea of having more options to strategies


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Whiskey Creek Gadabouts
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:38 pm

Atlanta Africans wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Honestly, I already have something noted for next January because I just never got enough time to brainstorm before this January but I am very much against people being able to start the auctions for their own tagged players.  It's fucking stupid.

I know people can whine about damn near anything in life, but the entire point of tagging is paying that price and then waiting to see if people are gonna come after your player.  In some cases they will not.  Yes, the timing of the game could hurt/help you but that's part of the game just like everything else.

Anyway, by January I intend to have something figured out....

If you do change it, that lowers the values of tags quite a lot imho

and a number of changes have been introduced with the thought that it adds more strategy to the game.. allows a team to do multiple things... I think figuring out if your guys are going be 'targeted' by others is strategic and if you end up getting a first in the process, you can then go after someone elses


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Morrison Minions
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:03 pm

Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
Atlanta Africans wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Honestly, I already have something noted for next January because I just never got enough time to brainstorm before this January but I am very much against people being able to start the auctions for their own tagged players.  It's fucking stupid.

I know people can whine about damn near anything in life, but the entire point of tagging is paying that price and then waiting to see if people are gonna come after your player.  In some cases they will not.  Yes, the timing of the game could hurt/help you but that's part of the game just like everything else.

Anyway, by January I intend to have something figured out....

If you do change it, that lowers the values of tags quite a lot imho

and a number of changes have been introduced with the thought that it adds more strategy to the game.. allows a team to do multiple things...  I think figuring out if your guys are going be 'targeted' by others is strategic and if you end up getting a first in the process, you can then go after someone elses

Yup. And if your guy is the last one... well I guess you're just shit out of luck. Because we all prefer luck.


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:34 pm

Morrison Minions wrote:
Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
Atlanta Africans wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Honestly, I already have something noted for next January because I just never got enough time to brainstorm before this January but I am very much against people being able to start the auctions for their own tagged players.  It's fucking stupid.

I know people can whine about damn near anything in life, but the entire point of tagging is paying that price and then waiting to see if people are gonna come after your player.  In some cases they will not.  Yes, the timing of the game could hurt/help you but that's part of the game just like everything else.

Anyway, by January I intend to have something figured out....

If you do change it, that lowers the values of tags quite a lot imho

and a number of changes have been introduced with the thought that it adds more strategy to the game.. allows a team to do multiple things...  I think figuring out if your guys are going be 'targeted' by others is strategic and if you end up getting a first in the process, you can then go after someone elses

Yup. And if your guy is the last one... well I guess you're just shit out of luck. Because we all prefer luck.

So true. Self bidding over emphasizes timing...

vote yes


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Atlanta Africans
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:51 pm

I don't think Shawn was agreeing with you Dave


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Baja Beatniks
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:58 pm

Atlanta Africans wrote:
I don't think Shawn was agreeing with you Dave

Right. It's sarcasm replying to sarcasm.


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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:32 am

If your player is the last one...you being "fucked" or not is on you. Why are you fucked? Don't you have enough money? Didn't you plan ahead? Didn't you have a backup plan? Sounds like YOUR STRATEGY didn't work out to me.

Atlanta Africans wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Honestly, I already have something noted for next January because I just never got enough time to brainstorm before this January but I am very much against people being able to start the auctions for their own tagged players. It's fucking stupid.

I know people can whine about damn near anything in life, but the entire point of tagging is paying that price and then waiting to see if people are gonna come after your player. In some cases they will not. Yes, the timing of the game could hurt/help you but that's part of the game just like everything else.

Anyway, by January I intend to have something figured out....

If you do change it, that lowers the values of tags quite a lot imho

How so?

I mean I came from a league that played without this nonsense of owners starting their own auctions and it was fine and fun. The tags were no less valuable.

I think some people just view this process differently than others. You want a guarantee? It's called an extension or a Super Franchise Tag. They both come at a price vs reward ratio.

The FT, TT and CT have a different cost vs benefit vs risk ratio but some folks are freaked out by uncertainty and it's kinda lame.


Navigating your team through this process with all the nuances is the fun of it and that is what I am for....starting your own tagged player auctions OR having a separate tagged player auction only makes sense if we are looking to reduce the risk to owners when it comes to player retention (which we're not) and why stop there? Let's just go full dynasty, no contracts, keep em forever style....oh yeah...because that would be too easy.


It really is my fault...I should have nipped it in the bud right away since allowing owners to start their own auction was never the design. You tagged a player...it came at a cost....then you wait...will someone be willing to pay the tall price to steal your player away?...can you stop them?....will you stop them?....did you ever intend to stop them?....what if you went after someone elses player?...did you do it thinking your FT player was safe?...did you leave yourself vulnerable?...will it cost you?...

That's what it's suppose to be. Not some controlled environment canned hunt pussification shit.

RFA is supposed to be about the hunt...while also being hunted...how much control do you need? In order to ride your bike right you had to take the training wheels off at some point.



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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:34 am

The way I see it....tagged players require a bid of WB + draft pick compensation therefore owners simply bidding 26 or 51 WB on their own player is an illegal bid and if nothing else that'll be my goal in January if I don't come up with more of an argument to improve this part of things.


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Morrison Minions
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:54 am

Minnesota Eternals wrote:
That's what it's suppose to be.  Not some controlled environment

It sounds to me like you want it to be more of a controlled environment, not less. I'll plan accordingly.


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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:00 am

Morrison Minions wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
That's what it's suppose to be.  Not some controlled environment

It sounds to me like you want it to be more of a controlled environment, not less. I'll plan accordingly.

scratch How so?


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Hamilton Steel Cats
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:41 am

How do you plan to prevent collusion.  Two owners get together and come to some sort of agreement to bring out a player for a player in the same year, a player for a pick down the road in some trade, a player for some WB's down the road.  A player for a player but one this year for one next year so not to make things obvious.  The different amounts of ways to fudge this is almost endless.  And before we get into the "oh we are all good guys, nobody is going to do it"  chances are high somebody will do it and the problem then becomes ... How are you A) going to enforce the buddy buddy shit from going down and B) how are you going to penalize the teams if and when they ever get caught.  I'm sure the penalty can be severe and harsh like immediate explusion from the league and forfeiture of insurance funds.  Again though I harken back to the fact "that there are many ways to skin this beast and even if two of only 24 owners delve into this mud wallowing, they are thus creating an imbalance which is damn near impossible to prove, unless someone here works for the NSA.

So not sure why you want open this box of shit because owners are opening the bid on their own guys and not waiting at the mercy of the other owners who will usually be more than happy to let the tagged players sit there while they do their shopping, and only when they don't get the FA's they wanted with zero compensation, do they come calling for the RFA Tagged guys and are now willing to part with a pick.

Seeing as the players are tagged and actually have a (opening) bid placed on them I'm not even sure why they are not on the markets immediately when Free Agency opens.  Alas, I'm sure that was brought up years ago and the compromise was to allow teams to bring out their own F/A's and not let them rot on the vine till giving up a pick don't look so bad now after all.  

Not sure what all this pussification shit is about, then rolling in the proverbial hunt or be hunted.  Hey, great we are going hunting, can we all carry guns, or do those with 1st and 2nd round tagged players get to fight with butter knifes so they aren't called pussies by the guys caring guns?


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:34 am

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
How do you plan to prevent collusion.  Two owners get together and come to some sort of agreement to bring out a player for a player in the same year, a player for a pick down the road in some trade, a player for some WB's down the road.  A player for a player but one this year for one next year so not to make things obvious.  The different amounts of ways to fudge this is almost endless.  And before we get into the "oh we are all good guys, nobody is going to do it"  chances are high somebody will do it and the problem then becomes ... How are you A) going to enforce the buddy buddy shit from going down and B) how are you going to penalize the teams if and when they ever get caught.  I'm sure the penalty can be severe and harsh like immediate explusion from the league and forfeiture of insurance funds.  Again though I harken back to the fact "that there are many ways to skin this beast and even if two of only 24 owners delve into this mud wallowing, they are thus creating an imbalance which is damn near impossible to prove, unless someone here works for the NSA.

So not sure why you want open this box of shit because owners are opening the bid on their own guys and not waiting at the mercy of the other owners who will usually be more than happy to let the tagged players sit there while they do their shopping, and only when they don't get the FA's they wanted with zero compensation, do they come calling for the RFA Tagged guys and are now willing to part with a pick.

Seeing as the players are tagged and actually have a (opening) bid placed on them I'm not even sure why they are not on the markets immediately when Free Agency opens.  Alas, I'm sure that was brought up years ago and the compromise was to allow teams to bring out their own F/A's and not let them rot on the vine till giving up a pick don't look so bad now after all.  

Not sure what all this pussification shit is about, then rolling in the proverbial hunt or be hunted.  Hey, great we are going hunting, can we all carry guns, or do those with 1st and 2nd round tagged players get to fight with butter knifes so they aren't called pussies by the guys caring guns?

If we are going to adjust our rules for not being allowed to stop collision then why do we allow trading?  How do we stop someone  from doing a marginally lopsided trade for a kick back of the winnings?  There is more than one way to skin the trading beast.

See how crazy this sounds......


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Hamilton Steel Cats
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:14 am

WTF are you even talking about Dave. Quit giving me riddles and sarcasm shit and having me sort through it to figure out what you mean, speak fuckin English please. Thanks.


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Titletown Tyrants
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:16 am

Well are we thinking its a slight advantage to get your tagged guys done first? Why doesn't the commish then roll them out, starting with the last place guy in each conference and work his way up to the 1st? A little bit more controlled, and then we know how it will go. That was kind of how I thought it went after reading the rules anyway, not the league nominating.


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Baja Beatniks
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:16 am

I was thinking something similar, Nick. Fuck it. The clocks starts on every tagged player immediately upon RFA opening. Have fun everyone!


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Philadelphia Pigskins
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:22 am

This comes up every year laughing

I don't think there is a right or wrong way here. Different ways work for different leagues. My understanding of the vision here is that certain tags are supposed to carry some risk. The fact that your FT or TT player can be nominated and that you can lose them is part of the risk associated with them. L then we have other tags that don't carry that risk. Having separate auctions removes that risk, because everyone finds out right away which players they are keeping. Again, that is fine and works in leagues where that is the system, but I don't think that was the vision here. To me, the fact that your FT or TT player can be nominated late and make you rethink your strategy is part of the fun- having to be reactive during RFA is part of what makes it interesting. Yeah it sucks if your guy gets put up last, but that is part of using a FT or TT.

I don't few too strongly about either option, but I do think we should just make a decision and stick with it so we don't have to rehash this every year...

2cents


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Titletown Tyrants
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:38 am

Why not set the first few days for FT. Start from the 12th ranked person in that division, as well as the 11th. Get those down, start more, finish with FT, and continue with TT. Get all of them done, and move to RFA.


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Morrison Minions
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:00 am

Minnesota Eternals wrote:
Morrison Minions wrote:
Minnesota Eternals wrote:
That's what it's suppose to be.  Not some controlled environment

It sounds to me like you want it to be more of a controlled environment, not less. I'll plan accordingly.

scratch  How so?

This topic isn't worth arguing over any further. I'll adjust my plans to whatever you think is best.


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Baja Beatniks
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:28 am

A decent argument from either side sways me. Meaning I'm dangerously neutral and hope I never have to vote on the topic. As with most everything, I wish there was a policy that satisfied all views. So, though it won't be well received, I'm going to take a stab at a middle ground type idea:

Owners are allowed to open bidding (bid against themselves) on Franchise and Transition tagged players, but it starts a longer clock. Maybe the auction for that player doesn't end until 48 or 72 hours after the last bid. Ratchets up the risk a bit without dictating who can open bidding or when. It creates a tiny disincentive to opening bidding on a FT or TT player, but that could be limited to owners starting their own by keeping the clock at 24 hours if opened by a non-owner.


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Bergen Brawlers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:35 am

Can I clarify a point/ask a question -- is the issue with starting bids on guys that require another owner to give up a draft pick to make a bid?  Or is the issue with bidding on any of your players?  In other words, does anyone care if I throw in a 1 WB bid on Darius Davis (Mr. Invalid) or some other similar player who I will take no steps to protect?


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Whiskey Creek Gadabouts
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:47 am

Bergen Brawlers wrote:
Can I clarify a point/ask a question -- is the issue with starting bids on guys that require another owner to give up a draft pick to make a bid?  Or is the issue with bidding on any of your players?  In other words, does anyone care if I throw in a 1 WB bid on Darius Davis (Mr. Invalid) or some other similar player who I will take no steps to protect?

I think the whining has tended to be focused around those guys that require compensation back. FT and TT mostly.


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Baja Beatniks
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:55 am

Someone may disagree with me Russ, but at the heart of the issue is that owners are bidding against themselves on the tagged players in a scenario where they only pay WB but opponents have to include a compensation pick. Nobody grumbles about owners opening bidding on their non-tagged players and it doesn't happen much. Pretty much everyone opens bidding on their own tagged players though.

Technically though, they are both the same. Owner already has the winning bid - 0 in the case of non-tagged, making a bid of 1 a bid against themselves with the only benefit being getting to the end of the auction on their timetable and therefore being able to proceed with other auctions accordingly.


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Atlanta Africans
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:14 am

Let me address a couple of points

1) The idea that you should need to include a compensatory pick to bid on your own player is nonsense, since the pick goes to yourself if you win and player and if you don't

2) The reason it devalues tags for me is that I would have 50wb or 25wb or whatever tied up in a player that I have no control over the nomination/timing. Timing is everything in auctions so I would be much less inclined to tag a player I actually want to keep and rather just bid on him as a normal RFA.

3) How are you supposed to "plan ahead". Your tagged guy is your preferred option, you cannot nominate him and nobody else has yet. Your #2,#3 etc options come on the board. Do you bid and risk getting 2 guys at the position or wait and risk getting none or having to severely overpay? There is no way to "prepare" for this.
Now can you argue that's the rub of an auction, sure but I don't see why you would force more randomness and less strategic options available to players. Same reason we don't randomly assign rookie draft order - it would make things more "risky" but less strategic

I'll stop now as it's clear where I stand and that there are points on both sides


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:02 pm

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
WTF are you even talking about Dave.  Quit giving me riddles and sarcasm shit and having me sort through it to figure out what you mean, speak fuckin English please.  Thanks.

This is as clear as fucking english as I can speak -

You talked about not changing it because people (even if just two) can collude and find a work around anyway. You ended this by saying there is more than one way to skin the beast.

I countered that argument by saying that people can collude (even if just two) when trading so we should not have trading either. This was to point out the follie in your argument. We should never consider if people will try and find a work around when trying to make league rules...

Clear enough for you?


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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:04 pm

Norfolk Bombers wrote:
Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
WTF are you even talking about Dave.  Quit giving me riddles and sarcasm shit and having me sort through it to figure out what you mean, speak fuckin English please.  Thanks.

This is as clear as fucking english as I can speak -

You talked about not changing it because people (even if just two) can collude and find a work around anyway.  You ended this by saying there is more than one way to skin the beast.

I countered that argument by saying that people can collude  (even if just two) when trading so we should not have trading either.  This was to point out the follie in your argument.  We should never consider if people will try and find a work around when trying to make league rules...

Clear enough for you?

He said follie... True story right there...


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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:19 pm

Ian wrote:
1) The idea that you should need to include a compensatory pick to bid on your own player is nonsense, since the pick goes to yourself if you win and player and if you don't

...and that is funny because you may no even have the pick it would take to compensate yourself with if we go down that rabbit hole.



When you boil it all down, there are two sides...

MINE...which is that you don't have certain control over tagged players other than the right to match the bids on them

OPPOSED...which believes you should have the control of when these tagged players get bid on.  

Since it's clearly beneficial to you that they get done first so you know precisely where you stand is exactly why it shouldn't be done that way.  You had a chance to lock the player down (extension or SFT) and you opted to gamble in a sense.  That's the intent.

I would rather punt these tags than start all of them before RFA and they don't need longer clocks either.  Call it luck, skill, good planning, poor planning, winning, losing or getting fucked...the intent of these tags was not to allow the owning team to control everything so much that they were essentially assured to retain the player of X value or be compensated accordingly EARLY ENOUGH IN THE PROCESS so that they could just waltz out and make up for it.  Does that make sense?  Teams should be able to benefit or eat shit because of RFA and those on the other side of this issue from me are trying to have more control than the intent of these tags was meant to give.

Like Matt said, both sides are fine and have a place somewhere...I only give a shit about RW.  The intent here was for there to be MORE ways for things to play out which would occur by not allowing owners to control this shit.  Some of these tagged players would never get bid on (saving you 1WB) and some would go late because owners get desperate and the prices might skyrocket while others may go early, or in the middle, or when you left yourself vulnerable by bidding heavily elsewhere.  As it stands, nearly everyone opens their own player early and it's dull.

I compare it to our starting lineups.  Here we lots of flexibility and you you see lots of strategies.  In leagues that require you to start 3 RB's, it's painfully obvious that you had better get at least 3 good ones quickly, right?  When nearly everyone does the same fuckin thing it's obvious that the system is structured for it.  You cannot read the bylaws governing our tagged players and tell me with a straight face that it was designed so that everyone would be wise to open their own fucking player right away to ensure they didn't get blindsided later.  You won't find verbage supporting that claim.  All you have is my failure to cover this back in 2011 because it just never crossed my mind.  

Like most things, I prefer the version where you'll see more than one course of action taken by owners.


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:22 pm

Atlanta Africans wrote:
Let me address a couple of points

1) The idea that you should need to include a compensatory pick to bid on your own player is nonsense, since the pick goes to yourself if you win and player and if you don't

2) The reason it devalues tags for me is that I would have 50wb or 25wb or whatever tied up in a player that I have no control over the nomination/timing. Timing is everything in auctions so I would be much less inclined to tag a player I actually want to keep and rather just bid on him as a normal RFA.

3) How are you supposed to "plan ahead". Your tagged guy is your preferred option, you cannot nominate him and nobody else has yet. Your #2,#3 etc options come on the board. Do you bid and risk getting 2 guys at the position or wait and risk getting none or having to severely overpay? There is no way to "prepare" for this.
Now can you argue that's the rub of an auction, sure but I don't see why you would force more randomness and less strategic options available to players. Same reason we don't randomly assign rookie draft order - it would make things more "risky" but less strategic

I'll stop now as it's clear where I stand and that there are points on both sides

1) It should take someone willing to move a pick to start an auction on a tagged player. Which by default should prevent the original owner from starting the auction. Maybe if you want to bid on a player you can forfeit a pick. That is not going to happen I know, but to me it is just as crazy as bidding on your own player...

2) I highly doubt if you have 3 BIG STARS (oh say Dez, Landry, and Dalton) heading into FA that you will not tag all three just to be able to bid whenever. THAT IS CRAZY TALK. no

3) This i the point where we are divided. You are right, it is a pick your poison decision. Let the tagger have the advantage or let the non tagger have the advantage on each tagged player. I prefer to give the advantage to the person NOT receiving compensation if he he or she loses.


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Hamilton Steel Cats
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:34 pm

Clear, in that I disagree with almost everything you have said.

When writing rules you should look for the loopholes and close them before hand, and not run around after the barn door is left open trying to figure out how to put the livestock back in the barn.

Colluding in a trade has a penalty I'm sure. Yep, P.2

Closing the door on nominating your own RFA tagged players would need to be added into this is what I am saying. Seeing as we have allowed it for 3 or 4 years and now it could come to a close, some may look to find a work around, such as I suggested. Thus, p.2 would need to be amended and re-written to account for this and make it something that is "officially" illegal and punishable.

Comparing what I suggested to every and any trade being possible collusion and thus going to no trading is moronic at best. Real trades have hits and misses, winners and losers, and sometimes even two winners where both teams benefited. Fact is those trades were done in good faith and are legit. However, two guys doing a lil reach around for one another to skirt a new ruling via a trade and trying to mask their motives is collusion in a form and thus punishable and needs to be addressed.



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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:46 pm

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
Clear, in that I disagree with almost everything you have said.

When writing rules you should look for the loopholes and close them before hand, and not run around after the barn door is left open trying to figure out how to put the livestock back in the barn.

Colluding in a trade has a penalty I'm sure.  Yep, P.2

Closing the door on nominating your own RFA tagged players would need to be added into this is what I am saying.  Seeing as we have allowed it for 3 or 4 years and now it could come to a close, some may look to find a work around, such as I suggested.  Thus, p.2 would need to be amended and re-written to account for this and make it something that is "officially" illegal and punishable.

Comparing what I suggested to every and any trade being possible collusion and thus going to no trading is moronic at best.  Real trades have hits and misses, winners and losers, and sometimes even two winners where both teams benefited.  Fact is those trades were done in good faith and are legit.  However, two guys doing a lil reach around for one another to skirt a new ruling via a trade and trying to mask their motives is collusion in a form and thus punishable and needs to be addressed.  


OK, lets try this again.

I took

Cats wrote:
So not sure why you want open this box of shit

to mean that since changing this rule would require us to consider a collusion work around we should not change this rule. To me that line of thinking could not be more wrong...Just because there is a work around does not mean a change should not be considered.



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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:59 pm

The positive out of this heated discussion is that you all care. If you didn't care you wouldn't be so heated. Long live Roster Wars.

There was a time where I would be involved in heated discussions. Now all I want is a delicious eclair. No drama just a simple eclair. Tasty flaky surface on the outside and a sweet cool delicious filling. I would SFT that in a heartbeat!


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Hamilton Steel Cats
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:10 pm

And the reason I called it a box of shit, is that proving collusion is next to impossible at the best of times. Unless someone here works for the NSA and can do wire tap, read emails, and the such. Proving two teams are doing a buddy deal to circumvent the potential new rules of nominating RFA's will not happen. If it does happen this creates and imbalance and is not fair for the other 22 owners. Some would be getting the perks and others not.

I fully grasp the fact we have two slam dunk tags, but the comp 1st and 2nd round tags cannot be treated to the point that they are almost detrimental to the point of using them. A compromise in some fashion has to be achieved that provides a workable middle ground. The team owning the rights and matching ability should have some say as to when the player hits the market. They have a refundable 50 or 25 WB's invested in this player. Sure they get their money back if they decline to match on a late bid attempt and can receive a pick, but what are they gonna spend the new found WB's on when all the F/A's have already been bought up? It almost turns the tagging into a double whammy ass kickin' if left until the final weeks/days of the F/A process. You lose your player, you get money back that you can't really spend at this point, but you do receive a pick.

For the guys that hate the idea of nominating your own RFA, what if any middle ground do you see as something workable for both sides of the debate?


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:11 pm

I think what Sty just said is he does care anymore!

surprised





















tongue


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Hamilton Steel Cats
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:16 pm

No, what Sty said is this ... "He is a fat lil piggy, who likes tasty french treats"

"WHAT? I can't have any pudding if I don't eat my meat? Fuck You, Food Nazi! Bring me My Eclairs!!!"


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Norfolk Bombers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:24 pm

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
And the reason I called it a box of shit, is that proving collusion is next to impossible at the best of times.  Unless someone here works for the NSA and can do wire tap, read emails, and the such.  Proving two teams are doing a buddy deal to circumvent the potential new rules of nominating RFA's will not happen.  If it does happen this creates and imbalance and is not fair for the other 22 owners.  Some would be getting the perks and others not.  

I fully grasp the fact we have two slam dunk tags, but the comp 1st and 2nd round tags cannot be treated to the point that they are almost detrimental to the point of using them.  A compromise in some fashion has to be achieved that provides a workable middle ground.  The team owning the rights and matching ability should have some say as to when the player hits the market.  They have a refundable 50 or 25 WB's invested in this player.  Sure they get their money back if they decline to match on a late bid attempt and can receive a pick, but what are they gonna spend the new found WB's on when all the F/A's have already been bought up? It almost turns the tagging into a double whammy ass kickin' if left until the final weeks/days of the F/A process.  You lose your player, you get money back that you can't really spend at this point, but you do receive a pick.

For the guys that hate the idea of nominating your own RFA, what if any middle ground do you see as something workable for both sides of the debate?  

Fair question Todd. However, I think what you are describing is exactly what Andy is looking for. I would like separate auctions myself.

shrug


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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:28 pm

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
No, what Sty said is this ... "He is a fat lil piggy, who likes tasty french treats"

"WHAT? I can't have any pudding if I don't eat my meat?  Fuck You, Food Nazi! Bring me My Eclairs!!!"

so metal ECLAIRS WOOOO so metal


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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:54 pm

Hamilton Steel Cats wrote:
And the reason I called it a box of shit, is that proving collusion is next to impossible at the best of times.  Unless someone here works for the NSA and can do wire tap, read emails, and the such.  Proving two teams are doing a buddy deal to circumvent the potential new rules of nominating RFA's will not happen.  If it does happen this creates and imbalance and is not fair for the other 22 owners.  Some would be getting the perks and others not.  

I fully grasp the fact we have two slam dunk tags, but the comp 1st and 2nd round tags cannot be treated to the point that they are almost detrimental to the point of using them.  A compromise in some fashion has to be achieved that provides a workable middle ground.  The team owning the rights and matching ability should have some say as to when the player hits the market.  They have a refundable 50 or 25 WB's invested in this player.  Sure they get their money back if they decline to match on a late bid attempt and can receive a pick, but what are they gonna spend the new found WB's on when all the F/A's have already been bought up? It almost turns the tagging into a double whammy ass kickin' if left until the final weeks/days of the F/A process.  You lose your player, you get money back that you can't really spend at this point, but you do receive a pick.

For the guys that hate the idea of nominating your own RFA, what if any middle ground do you see as something workable for both sides of the debate?  

This is exactly where we are missing eachother.  You think it matters that the team losing the tagged player is potentially out of options right now.  I believe that is part of the game.

There is more than one reason to tag a player.
There is more than one reason to go after another's tagged player.
There is more than one outcome for your franchise when the dust settles from RFA.


If I transition tag Aaron Rodgers, would it take long for people to come after him?  Doubt it.  Why? Because the price is right or at least there is the chance.  If I transition tag my kicker, is anyone gonna come after him?  Doubt it.  Why? Because most if not all would consider the price too much.  Why would I do that then?  Well, I guess I just got a second SFT, didn't I?  Now pick a player in the middle...Eric Decker...are people coming running for him like they did Rodgers?  Probably not.  Why?  Well they probably will pursue other options that don't require compensation.  What does this mean for you?  Who knows.  Maybe nobody comes because those other options work out and those whose options don't work out aren't interested in Decker.  Maybe someone is desperate though and they come late and aggressively.  You defend Decker or you don't.  If he leaves you get compensated.  When you use that pick or those WB's is your problem.  The RFA process was not designed so that everyone could get their WB in at the best time for them.  Why would it?  I mean if that was our goal, then why not run each auction one at a time so that you don't have to juggle your WB balance throughout the process?  That would be helpful, wouldn't it?

If your tagged player is literally the last auction and despite your best efforts he is taken from you, you will get compensation and you can try to do better next year.

As for collusion, I am sure there are many scenarios we could paint where two douchebags could skirt our rules.  We do our best with our rules in regards to things like that and do our best in selecting owners who are of a higher character to start with.  Not aiming for something out of fear of douchetards is not something I am signing off on.


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Whiskey Creek Gadabouts
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:17 pm

I understand Andy's points. I just disagree.

Ultimately, I'd prefer that more teams are bidding on RFA players. I believe that not being able to initiate your own players stifles that. If you're just sitting around with your thumb up your bum - not because you enjoy it Justin, but because you're waiting around, I think that inhibits additional teams' bids.

I think Ian had said, teams may not be willing to bid on target 2/3/4. Personally, I think it's better to have more teams bidding on players.


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Bergen Brawlers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:18 pm

On this point, I do note that the RFAs are usually the last guys signed during NFL free agency, normally going back to their team after finding no one interested.


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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
I understand Andy's points.  I just disagree.

Ultimately, I'd prefer that more teams are bidding on RFA players.  I believe that not being able to initiate your own players stifles that.  If you're just sitting around with your thumb up your bum - not because you enjoy it Justin, but because you're waiting around, I think that inhibits additional teams' bids.

I think Ian had said, teams may not be willing to bid on target 2/3/4.  Personally, I think it's better to have more teams bidding on players.

Can someone explain to me what is going on please. Preferably with either pictures or those little smiley things? Who is on what side? is the Cat man angry at Dave? and is the Commish angry at Ian? so who is joining alliances against who? can we start a debate thread and continue arguing about stuff? ok time for my meds ttyl.


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Philadelphia Pigskins
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:23 pm

Tarpon Springs RedKnights wrote:
Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
I understand Andy's points.  I just disagree.

Ultimately, I'd prefer that more teams are bidding on RFA players.  I believe that not being able to initiate your own players stifles that.  If you're just sitting around with your thumb up your bum - not because you enjoy it Justin, but because you're waiting around, I think that inhibits additional teams' bids.

I think Ian had said, teams may not be willing to bid on target 2/3/4.  Personally, I think it's better to have more teams bidding on players.

Can someone explain to me what is going on please. Preferably with either pictures or those little smiley things? Who is on what side? is the Cat man angry at Dave? and is the Commish angry at Ian? so who is joining alliances against who? can we start a debate thread and continue arguing about stuff? ok time for my meds ttyl.

Can we make it an OFFICIAL debate thread with a bunch of asterisks???


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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:31 pm

Philadelphia Pigskins wrote:
Tarpon Springs RedKnights wrote:
Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
I understand Andy's points.  I just disagree.

Ultimately, I'd prefer that more teams are bidding on RFA players.  I believe that not being able to initiate your own players stifles that.  If you're just sitting around with your thumb up your bum - not because you enjoy it Justin, but because you're waiting around, I think that inhibits additional teams' bids.

I think Ian had said, teams may not be willing to bid on target 2/3/4.  Personally, I think it's better to have more teams bidding on players.

Can someone explain to me what is going on please. Preferably with either pictures or those little smiley things? Who is on what side? is the Cat man angry at Dave? and is the Commish angry at Ian? so who is joining alliances against who? can we start a debate thread and continue arguing about stuff? ok time for my meds ttyl.

Can we make it an OFFICIAL debate thread with a bunch of asterisks???
Ok I got this! this is something I am good at!
Sorry Shawn


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Bergen Brawlers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:45 pm

    

  


      

  

   slap

    

        

  

  

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Tarpon Springs RedKnights
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:23 pm

OMG THANKS! It all makes sense now! cheers cheers


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Minnesota Eternals
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:38 pm

Sanibel Gadabouts wrote:
I understand Andy's points.  I just disagree.

Ultimately, I'd prefer that more teams are bidding on RFA players.  I believe that not being able to initiate your own players stifles that.  If you're just sitting around with your thumb up your bum - not because you enjoy it Justin, but because you're waiting around, I think that inhibits additional teams' bids.

I think Ian had said, teams may not be willing to bid on target 2/3/4.  Personally, I think it's better to have more teams bidding on players.

I don't follow sir...why would less people be bidding if one isn't allowed to start their own tagged player right away?

If I start the auction for your tagged player 2 weeks in for example...
...or towards the end...anyone who has done an auction draft knows the last few gems can get a lot of attention after all...and while I know this is different than that, that doesn't mean there couldn't easily be 2-3 teams feeling desperate to score a certain level of player before RFA ends...


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Atlanta Africans
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:20 pm

Bergen Brawlers wrote:
    

  


      

  

   slap

    

        

  

  


Wow this is one of the best posts on a forum ever!!!
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Titletown Tyrants
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:41 pm

Russ, I'm going to kill you, you little bitch.. laughing


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San Francisco Golddiggers
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:13 pm

Russ had a very fine post indeed.
One of the reasons I don't bid on FT and TT players that come up early is because that owner can then turn around and use the pick I just gave them to bid on other FT/TT. If the FT player came up late when there weren't that many left then I'd be more likely to fire away. Another reason is that in TT, I think owners tend to overtag players (i.e. very few FT players are worth a 1st + 50 WB).


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New England Nineties
 
 
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PostSubject: Re: ***OFFICIAL Whine About Bidding Thread***   Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:37 pm

I hate that you can bid on your own players. Especially in TT where things tend to be more conservative. People jump out and lock down their own players first to have more certainty for the rest of the auctions. Well we can certainly call that "strategy", I call it "hand-holding." If you tag a player, you should be at the mercy of the market, including the timing of it.


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